Curse

Carinae · Aug 27, 2008, 10:10 AM // 10:10

The message I've heard (from people in the loop) is that Izzy changed it purely because it wasn't used AT ALL in PvP. That's it. They simply didn't realize it was used in PvE. They didn't realize that it was the ONLY elite used by good PvE MMs.

I've also heard that a revert is quite likely.

bathazard · Aug 27, 2008, 10:28 AM // 10:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

for those of u wonderin bout flesh golem vs oou...

master of dmg reveals:

flesh golem - 27 dps (41, 27, 25, 34, 27, 39)

vampiric horror (oou) - 28 dps (36, 29, 28, 34, 32, 25)

vampiric horror - 10 dps (10, 10, 20, 11, 6, 15)

bone fiend (oou) - 46 dps (58, 44, 45, 48, 44, 46)

bone fiend - 15 dps (18, 14, 14, 19, 18, 18)

----

interpret as u will...
but flesh golem has same dps as a vampiric horror under oou

bone fiend under oou has more dps than fleshy
but fleshy hits harder (100dmg crits)

if its a 1minion build ur lookin for...

is it really worth takin oou over fleshy in minion-gimmick pvp?

pros:

vampiric horror heals u everytime it hits

bone fiend oou has superior dps

cons:

for a 1minion build...
u only need 1 skill slot for fleshy
u need 2 skill slots for oou+minion

u can re-create a fleshy from its own corpse a million times
if ur oou minion dies...thats it for him

in most cases, if ur minion is bein attacked...
higher hp+armour > +20regen
flesh golem = 600hp, 117al
bone fiend = 440hp, 54al

upkeep costs...
flesh golem = 10en every 100s (if not attacked)
horror = 15en, then 5en every 20s (40en in teh first 100s)
fiend = 25en, then 5en every 20s (50en in teh first 100s)

so yea...
oou is pretty useless imo

unless self-healing capibility or an extra +15dps is important to u,
at a loss for flexibility (extra skill slot, harder to upkeep, costs more energy, etc)

then i think fleshy is still superior in both pve and pvp

DPS = Damage per second...
Bone fiends attack roughly 1 attack per 1.9 seconds (30 attacks in 58 seconds).
Flesh Golems attack roughly once every 3.17 seconds (30 attacks in 95 seconds).
So...
Bone Fiend =
46dp per second averaged from 12 seconds...
Fleshy =
27 dp per second from 24 seconds

Bone Fiend = gg

Calista Blackblood · Aug 27, 2008, 12:56 PM // 12:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

The message I've heard (from people in the loop) is that Izzy changed it purely because it wasn't used AT ALL in PvP. That's it. They simply didn't realize it was used in PvE. They didn't realize that it was the ONLY elite used by good PvE MMs.

I've also heard that a revert is quite likely.

I really hope this is right

[order of undeath] = pretty awesome

Shadowmere · Aug 27, 2008, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Well as long as the current OoU is still for pve, I've tried it and it does work with the celestial horror you get in the last 2 missions/areas of factions. That's a lvl 25 super powered vampiric & zealous flesh golem for you, pretty impressive to see but outside of that I wouldn't want to use the new OoU in pve.

edit: in regards to the bone fiend+oou vs fleshie dps argument the fiend wins as I'm quite certain that the extra damage from OoU is also armor ignoring

Sniper22 · Aug 27, 2008, 08:20 PM // 20:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

The message I've heard (from people in the loop) is that Izzy changed it purely because it wasn't used AT ALL in PvP. That's it. They simply didn't realize it was used in PvE. They didn't realize that it was the ONLY elite used by good PvE MMs.

I've also heard that a revert is quite likely.

Only? Seriously? Jagged bones? No, never heard of it? IMO good minion masters in hard mode are better off with jagged bones. Help party heals with dwayna's sorrow and keep aggro more up front. Any aoe spell on those bone fiends with OoU will be almost a guarantee death for them. And btw... where is the proof saying that a revert may happen.

Edit - I might look into a usable pve build.

Turbobusa · Aug 27, 2008, 09:01 PM // 21:01

I'll really consider you a very, very, very good player if you can show me you're doing as fine as Olias with a jagged bomber build.

Shadowmere that is very interesting, I'll have to try that!

-Lotus- · Aug 27, 2008, 10:41 PM // 22:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sniper22

Only? Seriously? Jagged bones? No, never heard of it? IMO good minion masters in hard mode are better off with jagged bones. Help party heals with dwayna's sorrow and keep aggro more up front.

Humans can't play jagged bones.

simple as that

snaek · Aug 27, 2008, 11:00 PM // 23:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by bathazard

DPS = Damage per second...
Bone fiends attack roughly 1 attack per 1.9 seconds (30 attacks in 58 seconds).
Flesh Golems attack roughly once every 3.17 seconds (30 attacks in 95 seconds).
So...
Bone Fiend =
46dp per second averaged from 12 seconds...
Fleshy =
27 dp per second from 24 seconds

Bone Fiend = gg

u jus said wut i said...

i was tryin to make a point that while an oou fiend does more dmg...
thats teh -only- department it beats teh fleshy in
which makes it overall worse than a fleshy

Sniper22 · Aug 27, 2008, 11:30 PM // 23:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Lotus-

Humans can't play jagged bones.

simple as that

Lol if you fail at jagged bones then maybe you guys aren't as elite as you think your are. HP bars are shown on your minions making them easy to click on and make them explode. While casting death nova on several minions, you have a full 2 secs to find the next minion to cast on once you start casting on another.

Only problem comes when a wall or something is completely blocking your view.

Chthon · Aug 28, 2008, 01:23 AM // 01:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

The message I've heard (from people in the loop) is that Izzy changed it purely because it wasn't used AT ALL in PvP. That's it. They simply didn't realize it was used in PvE. They didn't realize that it was the ONLY elite used by good PvE MMs.

I've also heard that a revert is quite likely.

1. If there's a revert, I'll do a happy dance.

2. Even if there's a revert, it's seriously disturbing that Izzy is so far out of touch that he didn't even know OoU was THE elite for top-end MM's in PvE.

Carinae · Aug 28, 2008, 01:54 AM // 01:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sniper22

Lol if you fail at jagged bones then maybe you guys aren't as elite as you think your are.

Or, just maybe, you don't know what you're talking about. I'm gonna go with that option. Can I make JB work? Sure. Is it worth my time? Nope. The old OoU out-damaged JB/DN by a rather large amount AND was fire-and-forget, letting you work on other thing to boost damage even more.

I'm thinking you just haven't experienced a human MM laying down the law.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Even if there's a revert, it's seriously disturbing that Izzy is so far out of touch that he didn't even know OoU was THE elite for top-end MM's in PvE.

He's ONLY doing PvP balancing now. But, yea, it's disturbing. Even moreso that Ensign warned him about it before he change it.

Sniper22 · Aug 28, 2008, 10:29 AM // 10:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Or, just maybe, you don't know what you're talking about. I'm gonna go with that option. Can I make JB work? Sure. Is it worth my time? Nope. The old OoU out-damaged JB/DN by a rather large amount AND was fire-and-forget, letting you work on other thing to boost damage even more.

I'm thinking you just haven't experienced a human MM laying down the law.

Lol the law of playing minion master - been playing minion master since the game came out, not that much of a noob. The damage of OoU depends on the area. Ya sure OoU did great damage, but that build all depends on the number of corpses available and the type of mobs you're going up against and how much energy you have to spam it. OoU isn't the only elite used. I believe Jagged Bones is more of a defensive build anyway which is kinda why I like it. It can help keep some of the aggro and attacks up front while keeping your monks and other spell casters safe. With OoU, you might have like 4 horrors and 6 fiends or so, those 4 horrors won't hold aggro as well.

Hugh Manatee · Aug 29, 2008, 04:24 AM // 04:24

I really like the concept behind the new OoU, but I do see the appeal of the old version. Jooc since a lot of MMs are reading, would anyone seriously miss [Verata's Sacrifice] if they updated it to either the old OoU function or make it do what OoU does now(blow up all your minions for 1 super minion)? I haven't touched the skill since they nerfed it and minions in general(before the golem and jaggs I used to use Glyph of Renewal to recharge it faster... but still, it kinda sucked), BotM is better in everyway, unless you're only supporting a golem(which is dumb....) I see 0 use for verata sac nowdays. It used to be almost essential to maintain a huge fighting army but now... BotM just beats it...

So how bout we see if they'll give Verata's Sacrifice a new function?(if they toned down the buff or upped the sac per hit it could fufill either function really)

Moloch Vein · Aug 29, 2008, 05:35 AM // 05:35

You can't up the sac per hit from the normal Order of Undeath. It would kill you. The only way to run the skill would be with Aura of the Lich.

Sniper22 · Aug 29, 2008, 10:03 AM // 10:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

You can't up the sac per hit from the normal Order of Undeath. It would kill you. The only way to run the skill would be with Aura of the Lich.

Vampiric Horrors.

zwei2stein · Aug 29, 2008, 10:11 AM // 10:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

...OoU was THE elite for top-end MM's in PvE.

WHAT? ... WHAT?

I won't deny that it saw some use was kinda interesting, but OoU as THE elite for top-end MM in PvE? Weren't you just, perchance, doing something wrong?

boogerboy72 · Aug 29, 2008, 10:20 AM // 10:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

You can't up the sac per hit from the normal Order of Undeath. It would kill you. The only way to run the skill would be with Aura of the Lich.

i could see it being ok going up 1-2% but thats it.

vhorros more than cover the sac as it was.

lilondra · Aug 29, 2008, 11:01 AM // 11:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Or, just maybe, you don't know what you're talking about. I'm gonna go with that option. Can I make JB work? Sure. Is it worth my time? Nope. The old OoU out-damaged JB/DN by a rather large amount AND was fire-and-forget, letting you work on other thing to boost damage even more.

I'm thinking you just haven't experienced a human MM laying down the law.

He's ONLY doing PvP balancing now. But, yea, it's disturbing. Even moreso that Ensign warned him about it before he change it.

OK YOU'd think that by know izzy would know he'd suck at atleast be good enough to listen to ensign :/

Shadowmere · Aug 29, 2008, 06:34 PM // 18:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sniper22

Lol the law of playing minion master - been playing minion master since the game came out, not that much of a noob. The damage of OoU depends on the area. Ya sure OoU did great damage, but that build all depends on the number of corpses available and the type of mobs you're going up against and how much energy you have to spam it. OoU isn't the only elite used. I believe Jagged Bones is more of a defensive build anyway which is kinda why I like it. It can help keep some of the aggro and attacks up front while keeping your monks and other spell casters safe. With OoU, you might have like 4 horrors and 6 fiends or so, those 4 horrors won't hold aggro as well.

ok, seriously. You need to stop being so rude, but seeing as that's not likely I'm gonna have to point out the flaws in your argument. You more or less said here you prefer jagged bones because it's more defensive, ok fair enough when jagged triggers you "renew" your minions...with weaker ones, however if you've ever tried stuff like this in HM or higher end areas you'd realize those weaker minions are just great big cracks in your minion wall, if you're really interested in defesnive minion tactics take Aura of the Lich and spam BotM, that makes for a very stable minion wall even against high damage.

And sure you can get a few of them to explode on the enemy but you're still not doing it as effeciently as Olias could, simply beacause you can't target them as readily as heroes can, hell the heroes can still select the minion with the lowest health in less than 1/2 a second and death nova them first in combat. I'm guessing you pre prep your minions not go after them on the fly all the time. The simple fact is yes humans can run minion bomber builds however with the current interface we're given heroes will ALWAYS run it worlds more effeciently than any human can.

Carinae · Aug 29, 2008, 11:40 PM // 23:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

WHAT? ... WHAT?

I won't deny that it saw some use was kinda interesting, but OoU as THE elite for top-end MM in PvE?

Unequivocally.

It brings damage. What else are you gonna run? FG, AotL, IV, Discord? Nothing brings damage even remotely close to OoU. It's also a dangerous spell to use, so you have to be prepared for that. Very unfriendly to noobs.

The real shame is that the options for a MM are so limited.